Beyond Hero Mode ++ - How many stars is possible?

Hey myrddinemrys,

I haven’t actually beaten Face of Madness on Extreme - only Advanced. Kudos to you for the above stategy - it is great!

I am missing three stars on Extreme - Face of Madness, God-King Walks Again, and of course The Way Out.

I do not use H-bombs either, no. I did use both the Explosive Start and Furious Start books for the purple side quest “Into The Shadows”, when you only have Bakal and Slak. But I was simply jumping them around the level frequently for regular coverage, not purposely summoning and then un-summoning. I’m not a fan of the H-bomb strategy either, and it is also too time-consuming for me to summon and unsummon so many times :wink:

So yes, I beat Endless 1 without any H-bombing. I started with only Wrenna and Markos on the left side, but had to successively fall back as waves got harder, and eventually ended up with everyone grouped as close to Azra as possible. There was a bit of lightning micro involved in killing some enemies in time, and I jumped Slak around several times to help out where needed. It was a very close fight - I tried to make it as far as I could past Wave 50, but I only made it to Wave 51 :wink:

Challenge 3 was fun because I spent most of the fight with the entire party covered by Bakal’s Inspire range - three cheers for +49% damage!

Cool. I’ll try the challenges again soon… I wonder how far I will get in Endless 2 :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m going to start thinking about some subtle modifications that would make TWOE and TGKWAE possible in hero mode. Hopefully, I can figure out something simple and lars will include a HeroMode+++ for 201 stars in DQ1HD :smile:

Well I’ve tried Challenge 5 a few times now but haven’t beat it. It’s doable up until wave 28 or 29; then you get 4 successive waves of Abominations or other spawners followed by a number of armoured enemies. I haven’t been able to do enough damage to kill the spawners in time while also peeling off armour or taking care of the other threats.

I think I will leave Challenge 5 for now and let my subconscious mull it over :slight_smile: But I’d love to hear anyone else’s thoughts if they take it on.

A few of my thoughts here:

Thorn definitely needs to get nerfed.
Thorn feels like it was specifically designed to kill off Slak, and it grows extremely frustrating when Bakal simply cannot keep up with Slak killing himself due to thorn all the time. It would be nice if you make thorn similar to armor, making it possible to chop thorn off. Or better yet, make a weapon that renders the wielder immune to thorn.

Azra spells feel a bit dry during late game, a few more variety would be nice. Although we already have knockback, I always thought it would have been nice if we had a snowstorm spell which functions similar to dragon fire: hit everything on the map and slow everyone instead of burning them. Something like Polymorph that turns an enemy into sheep would definitely be entertaining.

Stage specific stuff sound OK. I would personally go for the spell approach, like ‘Inspire’ where in a specific stage a specific class will be in perma-frenzy or something. Or for that stage only, a spell gets additional effects.

I actually really like the Thorn mechanic because it forces you to change tactics and approach the problem differently. Yes, berzerkers will kill themselves if you just let them attack enemies with Thorn as fast as possible. So what else can we do? Different unit placement? Kill enemies in a different order? Can you hit them with a knight or dragon or ranged attacker instead? Sometimes I turn off all berzerker attacks except for Flurry so the berzeker can still do some damage and apply Bleed without knocking themselves out. Once the Thorned enemy has passed you can switch all attacks back on.

I think enemy abilities like this add nice variety to the game, because you can’t simply plow through everything with the same strategy.

Thorn doesn’t need nerfing. You just need to adjust. You’ve got 4 other units available, so just find a way to deal with thorny enemies.

My approach is to have berserkers only at level 2 so that they’ll have a good chance to apply their high bleed and still cost very little when they die (and provide useful distraction as targets too) - and if I’ve already got a high-level berserker placed, I’ll turn off his attacks except for the high-damage ones.

The Way Out is posible to win (edit: and perfect, see below)! I’m not sure how/if I can repeat it, but I’ve just done it.

Here’s what did the trick for me:
Everyone strength 60.
Azra - Book of Blood, Book of Plague. All red maxed, last 3 spare points into pushback (so 4 total, 2.75 tiles)
Markos - Evni+, Traitor’s Harness+. Swing, Smash, Lunge, Hard Knock, Stun Stab and Sword Training maxed. Last spare point to Cleave, making it 2.
Ketta - Warlord’s Triumph+, Master of Archers+. Triple Shot, Rapid Shot, Spread Shot, Sharp Shooter, Ranged Focus, and Poison Shot are maxed. The last 2 spare points go to Black Out The Sun.

Note the poison bow and max poison shot - the improved poison is more powerful than Sharp Shooter even if the poison runs the full duration. The main reason is +10% base attack, but once you’ve got the weapon, poison becomes a useful skill.

I am unsure if Swing or Cleave is better for Markos, and I’m really not totally sure about anything with Ketta, but it all worked. I think no extra points in heal is correct for Azra in this case because you basically can’t tank any attacks anyway. There is maybe a better choice for Markos’s armor, but I don’t have the skull for it yet.

So Ketta drops into that fairly obvious square that gives max coverage after boosting to 5 - she won’t be moving again. She will be in range of a few ranged attacks so the armor is helpful, but maybe not required. Markos is going to kinda bounce around wherever needed to rip armor off and deal damage, but we are going to run out of PSI at the end so be sparing about the moves. Don’t really bother healing him, but pull him out before the red armor enemies - Ketta will just have to hack though the armor tax. (Dragonfire often as well.) Although I did let him just die out 2-3 times, so it isn’t the end of the run if you get nothing back from him psi-wise. Also - drop him at 3 boost against those reds if you are repositioning him anyway, let him rip a bit of armor that way.

The combination of the 2 books and the 3 red spells should get you though most waves without need too much lighting - which again, we’re going to run low on psi, so sparing on the lighting. The big test is the Abominations. The first one gets covered over with a run of reds which means we can’t get Markos in there - wait till it is around the turn back up to take it on. You’ll need target strongest for a bit to make sure the Monstrosities all pop at nearly the same time (be liberal with the lighting here, phasing can ruin it!) and then either a crystal or dragon fire, and lots more lighting. Don’t be afraid to use those spells just before the Abomination shows up though, it’ll be alive for a while and should get back off cool-down.

Now right near the end I was almost getting overwhelmed with normal waves, and had to burn the dragon fire again to clear stuff out. At the same time, 2 Abominations are making their way down the map for a bit. By the time everything else is cleared out the Abomination on the top track is too close - while it pops, Azra has enough HP to take the 3 Monstrosities, so I just let them go. (I think it’d take a good bit more DPS near the end to get to the top track on fast enough.) Weirdly enough, I think you have to make sure you don’t kill any of them, as their payload will do more damage than they do.

Now dragon fire is on cooldown, but crystal should be up, so the final task is to again break open the 3 Monstrosities on the bottom at the same time and crystal them. Thankfully that leaves them all a 1 hit kills for lighting, because this is where I was out of psi to the point where Markos could only be put up to boost 2, and so Ketta + pushback + lighting has to end it.

Now if I go get the best armor for Markos for this (make him last longer against attacks) and maybe only use him at 3-4 boost when he will be lost anyway, I think I could fix the psi problem. However, I don’t think I can get enough extra psi out of the level to clear that last wave of enemies in time to start the top track abomination early enough, because then I can’t burn dragon fire right at the end. It is all close, so maybe with enough trying we can tweak out my setup to get it done, but yikes is it going to be hard to find much better that can be done. And it’ll be frustrating because the phasing sometimes ruins popping the Monstrosities on time (at least the longer extra pushback buys a bit in a pinch).

I’m going to take this Azra build against the other last few stars (ZA E, TFOM A and E, TGKWA A and E), maybe the very marginal TFOME won’t be quite so brutal with this. (Or, more likely, it won’t work at all, but meh, I’ll find out.) At least Bakal will be available on the others, so I won’t be starved of all meaningful healing. And TFOME would let me get one more upgraded armor… so there is a small chance of it being down to just TGKWAE.

Addendum - got the 60% resist armor, made a big difference. Almost managed to string the fire along till the end, but was getting swarmed at the end again and had to use it or take damage. Which then meant I was trying to kill the ending swarm with just one crystal, which isn’t enough to kill all the spawns. Ended up losing due to trying - just can’t get damage down fast enough when there is only like 3-4 tiles left. Had the psi, could have H-bombed… except don’t have a book slot for that, need both the blood and plague to get down enough AOE without tons of lightning taking all the psi away.

I think it is possible, but requires timing out when to fire crystal and dragonfire to “clear trash” and still get them back for the final spawn swarm. I think I’ll get it in a week or two if I don’t get too frustrated.

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The Way Out Extreme perfect is confirmed. I tweaked out the setup a small amount and shook up the spell timing a little (though I don’t know if the timing mattered), and pulled it off, though it twice had a margin of less than 1/4 a square (those last two abominations).

For Ketta, swap Triple Shot into Black Out The Sun. I put the spare 2 into Triple Shot, but not totally sure about that, maybe the base attack is better. I hadn’t accounted for casting lag fully before, the top boost skills are just plain better at max level.

Similarly for Markos, max out the damage. I pulled the points to get Cleave to max from Hard Knock, since the Abominations can’t be knocked back. I put the single last point into defense, not sure if it mattered. Strength of Wocolon+ is required I believe, otherwise he will die too fast and you’ll end up running out of psi.

The improved damage output and the ability to hang in for a while against the reds meant that I was able to stay further out in front for most or the run, and got psi basically almost maxed out (never true full psi due to needing lightning to stay “in front” of the spam). This finally let me take both dragon fire and crystal into the final abomination popping phase. I managed to get the short top lane done with dragon fire, pushback, and having one pop early (didn’t fire that one at all) - staggering the pops was enough extra space to get enough lightnings down somehow (thought I’d let 1 slip but something got it practically on top of Azra). The slower bottom lane I took with same time popping, crystal, a lot of lightning, and franticly repositioning Markos a last time - again within a 1/4 tile by the time I got the last one.

I think potentially, simply having a target specific might do enough if you micro hard to make this reasonable. It is posible, I’ve done it, but that was seriously nuts, thought I’d blown a nearly perfect run twice because I had zero spare wiggle room at the end. I’d imagine in its current form you simply have to take about 5 tries, at something like 45 minutes per, to get the magic workings that make it pan out. Maybe it belongs as is, simply on the theory that every game needs a K2 as well as an Everest?

Would love to hear if anyone else has been re-inspired to take a crack at it!

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Hey, nice strategy! :slight_smile:

I have a question though - are the Book of Blood and Book of Plagues available when playing in Hero Mode? I find that equipping the Book of Secrets only makes the secret map location available in the normal game. FWIW the Wikia page says “A new location … appears on the map … in the standard game”. Do they mention ‘standard’ because it doesn’t work in Hero Mode?

I have been playing all of the Hero Mode++ levels without using the Book of Plagues or Book of Blood. I see that myrddinemrys mentioned the Book of Blood when discussing the Face Of Madness though .

Did you two do anything special to unlock the Book of Blood in your Hero Mode game? Am I missing something?

I think you can get the secret Books in normal game too, they should carry over to NG+.

Whoah! That is super exciting - I know what I am doing tonight. Next stop TGKWAE?

culix - “Standard game” means “not new game +;” you can definitely use secret books in hero mode.

Ethan - Have you done TFoME? If so, how many tries did it take you? My first time took about 5 or 6 tries as well, but now I can get it 100% of the time.

Ahh, thanks - yes, if I unlock the Book of Blood/Plagues in normal mode, they carry over into NG+. The things you forget when you’ve been away for several months…

Using Ethan’s build and both books I made it to the 3rd last wave on my first try. This is ten waves farther than I have made it before :slight_smile: So nice thinking Ethan! I may keep pressing if I have spare time in the next few weeks.

Just took the first serious shot at TFoME (had tried TWOE first on a lark, and then it started getting unexpectedly close so I worked that one first), with much the same setup as TWOE. Even left Evni on Markos since I planned to have Slak chase the boss around. One quick screwup, then got more into the rhythm - but only took him a bit less than 1/2 down before I got overrun. Wave 44 or so. The abomination for TFoME is much less scary, but still a major problem. Worse is how I kept losing people left and right - I just can’t keep healing up enough. Maybe the light bow instead of the poison bow so I don’t need Bakal for both healing and light?

Maybe there is some tweaks to the other builds I can do to improve things, but I don’t think the Blood + Plague “load-out” will cut it for this one. Especially with the dark frenzy, I just can’t seem to keep things on the map long enough to wear them down with plague, and having to use Bakal for all the healing is a problem.

I’ll try 1-2 more with any tune-ups I can find (@myrddinemrys - I don’t understand why sleet is off in your setup, so maybe that’ll help if I understand that better) , then start hybridizing it with the only known way so far if I can’t do it “my way” - I expect there isn’t much that can be changed from myrddinemrys’ setup that can get it done.

@culix - it is the last 3 waves that are killer, so hopefully you start feeling not just ok, but actually good, about the part up until then. Remember, with Plague equipped it actually helps to wait to kill most enemies, since they keep taking damage - but you can get swarmed surprisingly fast if you leave it too long.

@Ethan - I’m confident that there are a lot of ways to beat TFoME… but I think the books are not changeable. Book of Plagues makes healing too hard and doesn’t affect Zelemir, anyway. Furious Start massively amps Wrenna when you move her (makes those abominations a lot easier!), and lets Slak do lots more damage to Zelemir. Best of luck, and I hope you figure out your own fun way to beat it.

FYI, I turn off sleet because its damage is just not enough to bother with and the slow effect is weak compared to my other spells. The only time you really care about Wrenna doing mass damage to her entire range is when abominations pop into worms… if you want, turn on sleet for those moments, but otherwise it’s just a waste of her time to be casting it - the casting lag is pretty severe.

I haven’t finished TWOE yet, but using plagues + just removing Markos before he gets damaged if I know he’s going to die makes a big difference. I’m pretty confident I will get it soon. But, it’s pretty much going to be by copying you :stuck_out_tongue:

Just a note - I’m fairly sure the recall psi is scaled linearly on remaining health. Sometimes the recall button displays this, sometimes it doesn’t, but if I watch the psi impact it seems to always be true. (A bug afaik) As such, recalling just before death only serves to remove the short cooldown, not actually to preserve psi.
On the flip side, casting heal just before recalling a damaged boost 5 Markos actually gains psi vs. simply recalling. I think even at just 1 level of heal.

Reading more carefully, it looks like you actually mean you pull him out for that last small bit of psi when you see the incoming attack animation. Yikes, I wasn’t that dedicated to micro! (I did eventually remember the trick of boosting to 4, letting him hit with lunge, then boosting to 5, though I don’t know if it actually helps, especially with the Evni speed buff.) Good luck, sounds like you are on track.

Edit: TFoME is down on the 2nd (and a half) try. It can be done with Blood and Plague. Key seems to be ok with letting most stuff run till the Red/Blue junction to soften up a bit, with Wrenna (ice spear off, sleet maxed/on) on the right (point 3) and Markos on the left. Due to the amount of jumping and incoming damage, Furious Start is probably stronger, but the plague setup might be a little more forgiving since some of your damage is passive.

If you try the plague route on this one, make sure to run the first dragonfire 2-3 before the end of the RGB darks - the cycle is slightly shorter than the dragonfire cooldown, and you want the timing to be good later on. Also, due to the later setup point, use fury right at the start, you’ll have it back in time. Sometimes had to jump Niru and Slak back onto the throat though - roar + whirlwind => really good meat-grinder.

Somewhat crazily, I forgot to swap to Beast Weapon+ for Wrenna, had the chill one instead. More raw damage, but 3x against worms is huge, so I bet that’d make it easier. Guess it proves you can get this even if you didn’t upgrade the Beast Weapon yet. Did retune my Wrenna after looking more at the cast delays, that did matter a surprising amount.

Recalling psi is based on psi spent on the defender AND the health left. You still get some psi if you recall right before a defender dies down.

Wow, I always expected to see other strats for TFoME, but not ones that used chill wand and book of plagues! Congrats on being the 1st to 200 gold stars. I’d say that I’ll race you to 201, but even if it is possible, it would take more time to figure out than I have. Best of luck should you try to do it.

In case you haven’t tried them yet, Endless 1 and all five challenges are definitely possible (actually easy in comparison). I tried Endless 2 with only using 1 character of each type in a different save where I wasn’t using hero mode, and I did not succeed… at all.

Everest has fallen!

(You’d lose the race BTW - sorry)
A bit like Everest IRL, TGKWAE is a “walk up” compared to the other two, although the shear spam of stuff coming at you makes for a very complicated fight. At root, book of plagues + Zelemir’s pushback tends to buy plenty of time and DPS - the main thing to watch out for is the set of spawns that drop down the green slot and head straight at Azra - you’ll want Wrenna and Markos there, and you need to put Ketta back onto first from strongest (=boss damage). Otherwise, just keep bouncing Slak around after the boss, and Markos wherever you need him - ripping armor isn’t actually hugely required with all the spells. (Except those short green spawns - are we sure those aren’t a mistake?) I would have had it on the first try but something slipped by and got Azra - not even sure what. Was only about 1/4 of the way done so I just reset then. I’d bet you’d have it within 2 or 3 tries with blood and plague - it is a level almost made for plague due to all the big HP enemies.

I think I got clobbered on challenge 5 last time I tried, but didn’t have Blood or Plague at the time, so I’ll take another shot tomorrow. I bet Endless 2 is simply beyond what can be done in hero mode - which is sad since it’ll be the only thing standing in the way of 100% completionist in hero mode. Pure DPS check is the single most lacking thing though, so not sure how that could be “fixed”.

I do think Chill wand was a mistake for TFoME, and would recommend anyone trying it, even with plague, use the Worm Wand (beast weapon?) instead. For TGKWAE the Chill Wand is better because of the higher raw damage and the need to slow stuff on the green lane.

Edit: Challenge 5 is “easy”? I got obliterated on that one again! I guess if I stay as far forward as possible it might not be too bad, but yikes, I was losing people all over the place, couldn’t keep anyone up at all. Challenge 5 seems harder than TFoME so far. I’ll give it a rest tonight, maybe I’ll be better tomorrow.

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It is done. 30/30 on 1 game. No H-bomb. (Yes secret books.)

Challenge 5 was brutal, the second hardest of them all I think. Switching to the Beast weapon finally let me get past all the spawns at the end, but it was still close, grinding, and lots of lightning. If I’m not mistaken Challenge 5 took 2.5 hours to complete.

TWOE remains the most insane because there is no room for error, while Challenge 5 clearly has slack (and Slak!), but the shear scale of it is was mind-numbing. Others in this thread implied this wasn’t that hard - is there some trick I didn’t get to this? Blood seemed required, plague seems strong still since the crux has lots of high damage enemies - and pushback was critical to give plague more time to work (stole if from crystal).

Endless 2 is also cleared to 1-2 waves beyond required - I got that on the first try, much easier. Didn’t expect that, but plague book scales with enemy strength, so I just needed to be good on cleanup from the spawns. The last few did have me chasing them across the whole map, and I actually used that “next” button as it got near the end, but had more to spare than I thought.

So, of the 5 “impossible” levels I’d put them in this order for difficulty:
TWOE
Challenge 5
TFoME
Endless 2
TGKWAE

Also - Lars… I know the lightest touch to make true hero mode possible. Don’t change anything lol! Been a long time since I’ve felt as good about winning a computer game as this feels - congrats on the excellent game.

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Ethan - CONGRATULATIONS! :smiley: And kudos! That is some very nice work :slight_smile:

Do you feel like posting a screenshot of your star count just so we can see how cool it looks? :wink:

Thanks to you all for posting details on your strategies. I’m not sure I have the time right now to sit down and follow in your footsteps, but perhaps in the future and with the release of DQDX :slight_smile: