Is it possible to clear all levels on extreme

#1

without going forward and getting better gear/characters/spells to come back and clear it? Some of these have rewards that become outdated 3 missions later, which kind of defeats the purpose of “going back” if that was the intent of design…

I am REALLY enjoying this game so far, but the strategy aspect goes out the window (especially on challenges) when you can get caught up in the story, forget about the challenges, then go back to do them and basically snooze through. Half-Minute Hero had a way to prevent “overpowering” the puzzles (ie. if you were on level 6, you couldn’t use equipment you found in level 7), I think this game could’ve found benefit from a similar system, even having a level-cap for each stage would’ve done wonders for game balance. By the time I got the dragon I had 3 starred several levels, which obviously needed me to do a decent amount of grinding (not intentionally, just from failed attempts)… I’m level 15 dragon joins at level 7. Next several stages were ridiculously easy.

#2

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

without going forward and getting better gear/characters/spells to come back and clear it? Some of these have rewards that become outdated 3 missions later, which kind of defeats the purpose of “going back” if that was the intent of design…

— End quote

I think not. At least, I tried (playing every map exactly once, in normal and NG+ modes), including all side quests and bonus levels I had unlocked. I have level 29 Azra with 6 zerks, 6 rangers, 4 healers, 3 mages, 3 knights and 1 dragon - and Zelemir’s Army is simply not doable at all. There’s a huge leap in difficulty - with this party I somehow managed to do all other battles (all perfect), but here I stand no chance - and it doesn’t change even when I edit the save, give myself heaps of money and buy the best equipment for everyone.

#3

Yeah, the game is very, very poorly balanced. The aesthetics and music are perfect, but gameplay is braindead. Brick wall? No matter how smart you play, the only true strategy is to go play older levels on higher “difficulties” for increased gains, and those aren’t even challenging now because you now outlevel/gear them. The “grind” mechanic is such a lazy design choice, instead of having a smart difficulty curve you just have the player brute force through time investment.

#4

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

Yeah, the game is very, very poorly balanced. The aesthetics and music are perfect, but gameplay is braindead. Brick wall? No matter how smart you play, the only true strategy is to go play older levels on higher “difficulties” for increased gains, and those aren’t even challenging now because you now outlevel/gear them. The “grind” mechanic is such a lazy design choice, instead of having a smart difficulty curve you just have the player brute force through time investment.

— End quote

That’s actually not true. The only balance problem is the porcupine trait on mad cultists. Other than that, there is a LOT of room for being smart (I think that getting to Zelemir’s Army with level 29 party in NG+ is not exactly a trivial thing, after all…) And before this was added, I beat the game both in linear mode and in Hero mode, normal and NG+.

How would you imagine “smart difficulty curve”?
The only possible choice I know of would be auto-balanced enemy levels, but that has been vetoed before.

#5

Go play Half-Minute Hero or Lost Odyssey for perfect examples of how to let the player gain in power without negating the difficulty.

Half-Minute Hero: You gain new equipment and fight stronger enemies which causes you to level up faster the deeper into the game you get, but if you’re on level ten and decide to replay level three, you’ll only have the gear/level up speed you would’ve had the first time you went through level three. Therefore, it will always require as much thought as it did the first time.

Lost Odyssey: Level caps for each area. If you hit level 20 and try to kill the boss and die, you can probably grind a bit (maybe to 21 or 22), but it eventually stops giving you XP from that area so you don’t go back to that boss and steamroll him. It ensures that you always approach boss battles as boss battles, instead of going “He’s too hard, I’ll just spend 30 minutes grinding and negate mechanics”.

I’d like to see a video of someone playing this game from start to finish without ever stopping to grind once or losing several battles in a row, and using the XP from failed attempts to finally push through that mission. That isn’t “thought”, that, again, is gaining in power to negate strategy, which I don’t think the devs had in mind when they created the game (or the “challenge” content, which was the perfect opportunity to restrict severe restraints on the player).

#6

NG+ is a nice idea but I don’t know if it was really necessary for this game, at least not the way they incorporated it. I find it boring for the same reason I find Diablo 3 Inferno boring, you keep getting gear but you aren’t getting new abilities to keep the game interesting. Instead of developing new strategies around new skills, you’re abusing the same ones but hitting (and being hit) harder. yawn

I also think the “star” system breaks the flow of the game. We’re already going through the levels three times (ng - ng + - ng++), why the need to go back and repeat now trivial content just to get another star and now outdated gear? The brick wall forcing grinding is just one thing, the other part (as I touched on in my OP) is the rewards. They seem out of whack. In most cases, by the time you can clear a level on “Extreme”, you’ve already found an upgrade from a later mission (on advanced) or purchased an equivalent/better weapon in town. I think they could’ve kept the three star system in place, but instead it just shows how well you did for each game. 1 star = cleared on NG, 2 stars = cleared on NG+, 3 stars = cleared on NG++. Obviously Blue still just means “clear” and Golden will still mean “perfect”. With the ideas I touched on above (level and gear caps per mission), you wouldn’t be able to just go back to NG once you have NG+ gear/levels and get all gold stars, or do the same for NG+ once you have NG++ gear/levels. This obviously doesn’t really work with the current game, which I’m still convinced is a dull grindfest at its core, but with a ton of elbow grease the sequel could be something great. Many people have emulated the audio/visual style of the SNES era (which this game obviously does well), but very few have exceeded when it comes to crafting the gameplay. Here’s hoping Level-Up games doesn’t end up falling into that category, because despite how many flaws I see with this game, there is great potential, and I’d hate to see it wasted.

#7

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

I’d like to see a video of someone playing this game from start to finish without ever stopping to grind once or losing several battles in a row, and using the XP from failed attempts to finally push through that mission.

— End quote

I don’t do videos, but otherwise this is exactly what I did. In earlier versions of the game it was possible to do even the NG+. Only after they’ve added porcupine to the armored cultists (and possibly some other tweaks) it became too tough. But that could be handled by simply tweaking down the monster levels on the last few battles. (If Lars wants, I can provide my savegame as a sample of how a non-grinding, normal-battles-with-no-replays player might look when he gets there).

#8

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

NG+ is a nice idea but I don’t know if it was really necessary for this game, at least not the way they incorporated it. I find it boring for the same reason I find Diablo 3 Inferno boring, you keep getting gear but you aren’t getting new abilities to keep the game interesting. Instead of developing new strategies around new skills, you’re abusing the same ones but hitting (and being hit) harder. yawn

— End quote

Have you played NG+ a lot? My experience with NG+ is that it breaks many “comfortable” strategies.

  1. It’s very far from just “hitting harder”, because against some enemies, you now have to do things quite differently

  2. The bit about new skills isn’t true either. You can beat the normal game at level 16 or so, leaving many skills still locked. And even if you’re getting near the end of NG+, most classes still have room to grow and use specializations. So yea, there are no “brand new skills” in NG+, but most players will have the opporunity to experience more skills that they didn’t get round to using in normal game.

— Begin quote from ____

I also think the “star” system breaks the flow of the game. We’re already going through the levels three times (ng - ng + - ng++)

— End quote

What’s ng++? Have I missed something?

Yes, of course, if you beat the whole Normal game and then the whole NG+, going back to normal to get 3 stars is boring, because you’ll place your one or two archers, boost them to max, hit 4x and go get a snack.

But, then, how would this be solved, and to what purpose, with level cap or gear cap restrictions? What if I want to get 3 stars on a low level in normal game with my level 30 party? Even if I go to battle naked, I will still pwn the creeps. And I dare say I would still pwn them even with higher skills turned off.

The game offers you a variety of gameplay choices. Each choice comes at a cost. Every player has a limit in their capabilities and tactical thinking, meaning that everybody has their personal brick wall at a different level in the game. If you introduce level/gear caps and restrictions, you’re essentially saying “if you can’t beat this level, you’re screwed and go play something simpler”. I see absolutely no reason to deny the game experience to average or downright inept players :slight_smile: .

— Begin quote from ____

This obviously doesn’t really work with the current game, which I’m still convinced is a dull grindfest at its core,

— End quote

I’ve never had to grind in the linear gameplay. And I really wonder how do other games tackle the issue of “current level is too hard for me because I suck at this game”.

#9

I fully agree with the guy above me, I did on my current playthrough (which is also my first and only playthrough) everything except the first few levels (until i had all the characters) and the last 3 levels of ng+ on extreme the first time. Also all the bonus challenges except the last 2 on ng+ . The end of ng+ couldnt be done since i was only around level 40 and like the other poster said porcupine is too strong i cant deal with it at that level. As for the first few levels I dont know if it would be possible to do them on extreme on first try i never tried to, i came back to them after i had learned more about the game.

I had made this account a few days ago to complain since there is no way for me to progress without grinding for a while but then i realized i had played something like 30 mostly fun hours for a low price so i didnt. It’s really just porcupine at the end that is waaaaayyyy too strong, its just crazy. Oh yeah also the super sheep, i didnt manage it in both normal and ng+ the first time i got there, but i might be able to if i did another playthrough and got the right skills/combo of chars/gear right away.

I probably wont do another playthrough until a new version is released though, been playing for a couple weeks now and wanna play something that doesnt involve excessive porcupining for now.

edit:

— Begin quote from "coyot"

…I tried (playing every map exactly once, in normal and NG+ modes), including all side quests and bonus levels I had unlocked. I have level 29 Azra…

— End quote

You did everything once on extreme and got to the end of ng+ at only level 29? I did it and had ~10 more levels… did you use the button to get less xp? i’m very sure i didnt have mine for more xp soooooooo…

#10

— Begin quote from "coyot"

But, then, how would this be solved, and to what purpose, with level cap or gear cap restrictions? What if I want to get 3 stars on a low level in normal game with my level 30 party? Even if I go to battle naked, I will still pwn the creeps. And I dare say I would still pwn them even with higher skills turned off.

— End quote

I don’t think you understand what level/gear caps are, because what you’ve described here is exactly what it would prevent.

— Begin quote from ____

I really wonder how do other games tackle the issue of “current level is too hard for me because I suck at this game”.

— End quote

You give them a lower difficulty to play on, which this game already has, and then it defeats the purpose of lower difficulties because all difficulties can be trivialized with grinding.

— Begin quote from "marla7567"

I fully agree with the guy above me, I did on my current playthrough (which is also my first and only playthrough) everything except the first few levels (until i had all the characters) and the last 3 levels of ng+ on extreme the first time.

— End quote

Okay, then prove me wrong. Post a video of the first 10ish missions where you don’t replay a mission once for extra XP, just start on “Extreme” (not going “Normal” - “Advanced” - “Extreme”), or just cruise through on “Normal”. In either case, never losing a fight once/many times to “grind” through the 50% gains through defeat.

#11

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

Okay, then prove me wrong. Post a video of the first 10ish missions where you don’t replay a mission once for extra XP, just start on “Extreme” (not going “Normal” - “Advanced” - “Extreme”), or just cruise through on “Normal”. In either case, never losing a fight once/many times to “grind” through the 50% gains through defeat.

— End quote

I’m really not sure i would be able to do it for the first couple of levels, but from the time i had the dragon until the last 3 levels of ng+ ( i completed them at 2 gold stars but not 3 gold stars), i first redid the first levels on extreme and then i did everything until the end except the super sheeps on extreme.

I’m not interested in replaying the whole game now though so if you dont believe me then… ok dont believe me.

#12

Cipher, you seem to be misunderstanding the fact that the game is deliberately designed to allow players to grind through levels if they want to beat them with less challenge. Even for extreme difficulty. It’s why the game has the option to crank XP and scrap gains all the way up to 300%. The casual difficulty is there for people who just want to read the story. Have a blog post by one of the creators of the game:

http://www.fortressofdoors.com/2011/08/ ... nding.html

Even if we assume that the game should have some sort of level cap like Half-Minute Hero does, how would you go about implementing that? Keep in mind that in Half-Minute Hero it’s OK to re-equip your guy between levels because you have one character. In Defender’s Quest you can have 36. Do you expect players to manually re-assign their skill points, or do you try to do it automatically in a way that’s probably not going to be the way the player wants to assign them? (The answer “you design it in a way that works with level caps” is not a valid answer because allowing grinding is one of the design goals of this game).

Also for what it is worth, it is possible to beat the regular game on Normal difficulty playing each battle only once, no extra “grinding” gains from level fails etc. It’s impossible to do this starting immediately at Advanced or Extreme because the first star-able level is only beatable on Normal on the first attempt (if your XP gains are at 100%).

If you’re finding some of the levels too easy, start playing any levels you have left the first time through on a higher difficulty level, or maybe play through on 50% XP and scrap gains. The way the game is designed is for people to start on Normal and then if they feel like they’re stuck they can go back and do earlier levels on a higher difficulty, essentially allowing people to “grind” but via new content rather than rehashing a level on a difficulty they’ve already beaten for more XP. But you don’t have to. You can play through on Normal only with 100% failure penalty and no grinding if you want. The tools are there to set your own challenge.

#13

Personally, I like to do one full chapter on Normal, and then as soon as I get the next chapter cutscene, head back to the other levels and beat them on Extreme if possible and Advanced if not. That gets a good flow of XP, a good flow of unique items, and an adequate challenge. In the later stages I often end up slightly over-leveled, so I just play on Advanced the first time through rather than Normal. If you wait too long before going back, yes, the levels will be too easy. But isn’t that the case with pretty much any game that has a leveling system? Unless it’s got some silly monster scaling system like Oblivion, “come back when you’re stronger” has been a core of rpg-esque gameplay since the beginning. I, for one, get a deep satisfaction from going back and beating maps/areas/monsters that were too difficult for me the first time.

— Begin quote from "coyot"

And I really wonder how do other games tackle the issue of “current level is too hard for me because I suck at this game”.

— End quote

Many games simply DON’T. If you suck at the game, you’re forced to either replay the level (or the whole game) repeatedly until you get better at it; or you read lots of walkthroughs and watch lots of videos; or you cheat; or you just give up and play something more rewarding. I think the way DQ does it is far superior, as you can simply grind to out-level content and still progress through the game if your strategy isn’t up to par. There’s an option there, even if you choose not to take it. It’s not until about halfway through NG+ that out-leveling really stops becoming an option and you truly have to hone your strategy. By that point, you’ve played enough of the game that you should have at least some idea what you’re doing, and you’re not missing out on any story content because you’ve already seen it.

#14

— Begin quote from "marla7567"

You did everything once on extreme and got to the end of ng+ at only level 29? I did it and had ~10 more levels… did you use the button to get less xp? i’m very sure i didnt have mine for more xp soooooooo…

— End quote

No, no, that’s a misunderstanding - I did everything once on Normal until I reached Zelemir’s Army in NG+, which currently is a brick wall that Lars needs to break down by balance tweaks.

#15

— Begin quote from "cipher86"

— Begin quote from "coyot"

But, then, how would this be solved, and to what purpose, with level cap or gear cap restrictions? What if I want to get 3 stars on a low level in normal game with my level 30 party? Even if I go to battle naked, I will still pwn the creeps. And I dare say I would still pwn them even with higher skills turned off.

— End quote

I don’t think you understand what level/gear caps are, because what you’ve described here is exactly what it would prevent.

— End quote

I understand level/gear caps just fine. Gear caps are pointless here, because the main source of power is your defender’s levels, skills and boost levels. So, if you really wanted to restrict a party’s playing strength to any particular level, you would have to alter and restrict an awful lot of things. Just forbidding gear obtained on higher levels wouldn’t really matter. And even restricting skills wouldn’t matter. You would have to downgrade Azra’s PSI power, defenders base attack and whatnot. And for what purpose? :slight_smile:

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

I really wonder how do other games tackle the issue of “current level is too hard for me because I suck at this game”.

— End quote

You give them a lower difficulty to play on, which this game already has, and then it defeats the purpose of lower difficulties because all difficulties can be trivialized with grinding.

— End quote

Pardon me, but there’s nothing wrong about the fact that all difficulties CAN be trivialized by grinding. There is absolutely no reason why grinding should be forbidden/prevented. The possibility of grinding doesn’t affect the game negatively in any way. It’s there for those who want to use it, for those who cannot manage otherwise. And there are other ways to achieve the same thing - play on casual, set XP and scrap multipliers, edit your savegame to add yourself heaps of scrap to spend on gear.

The game is not a grindfest. Except for the few last levels in NG+, grinding is absolutely not needed if you’ve got the skills to beat the game.

— Begin quote from ____

Okay, then prove me wrong. Post a video of the first 10ish missions where you don’t replay a mission once for extra XP, just start on “Extreme” (not going “Normal” - “Advanced” - “Extreme”), or just cruise through on “Normal”. In either case, never losing a fight once/many times to “grind” through the 50% gains through defeat.

— End quote

I’ve done exactly that (cruise through on Normal difficulty, fail penalty 100%, restarting if I couldn’t get a perfect, so in my playthrough I never replayed a battle, gained all battle rewards (XP and scrap) exactly once. I’ve done that several times during the game development (maybe I was even the first to do it, certainly the first to post about it here), the last attempt starting with build 1.0.35 or something. I won’t bother with a video, you’ll just have to take my word for it :slight_smile: .

(Well, on the last playthrough it was “almost” no grinding. NG+ Sheep level was simply not possible on Normal, I had to do that on Casual, and I accidentally “grinded” once on the first Zelemir level when I was trying to verify that I could kill him fast, ignoring his minions completely).

Yes, some of the levels were extremely challenging - and that’s IMO a good thing, because both the non-grind linear gameplay and the Hero mode without extra grinding are meant to be tough. (By hero mode I mean playing with no recruiting and no weapon purchases at all, and with grinding limited to replaying earlier battles on Extreme (or advanced if you cannot yet beat Extreme) just once. That is, an attempt to get all gold stars as quickly as possible. (I’ve done everything on Normal and Extreme only. The only levels I managed only on advanced were Desperate dash to freedom and side quest 7, and the remaining 6 on normal (party level 45)